But they're not as open about their submarine fleet, because they're not trying to sell submarines.

In 1981, when the Netherlands sold submarines to Taiwan, Beijing expelled the Dutch ambassador, downgraded relations, and expelled a Dutch reporter.

But much more is at stake in Europe's decision than whether it sells French fighter jets or German submarines to Beijing - namely broader commercial ties and some genuine diplomacy.

As part of the arrangement, Russia would be prepared to sell aircraft carriers, cruisers, submarines and several other vessels.

And the military industry, which collected billions of dollars a year selling expensive jets and submarines, was in no rush to tell customers that they needed smaller, cheaper equipment.

How can he expect to dissuade Moscow from selling submarines to Iran?

Germany has hinted to China that if the Airbus option is not exercised, Germany may sell submarines to Taiwan.

Russia has sold China four quiet Kilo-class submarines, which carry "wake-homing" torpedoes designed to detonate beneath a ship's keel.

Holland effectively lost control of the company and found himself earning a salary of $90 a week as chief engineer, while the company he founded was selling submarines for $300,000 each.

To help its cash-strapped military and nuclear establishment, Russia has sold submarines and other weapons to Iran.